CULTIVATING JOY AND CONNECTION ONE FRY AT A TIME

transcript

F&F #1 – Mari
[00:00:00] Hey there, you’re listening to Fishnets and Fries, but before we dive in, I want to acknowledge that this podcast is being recorded on the unceded and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, past, present, and future. As an uninvited settler on these lands, I’m committed to my ongoing journey of decolonization and learning.
And I invite you to join me in this important work. Hi, I’m Michelle Mateus, and this is your invitation. To get messy, get real, and get into conversations that matter. Whether you’re here for the first time or coming back for a second. Grab those fries and let’s dig in.
Michele: Welcome to Fishnets and Fries I’m your host, Michele Mateus, and I am so excited to be here with my dear friend, Mari Otomo, our first guest.
Thanks for saying yes. Mari is an able bodied, neurotypical, heterosexual, cisgendered, first generation Japanese Canadian.
Female living in Vancouver, British [00:01:00] Columbia, Canada, and she lives on the traditional and unceded lands of the Coast Salish peoples as an uninvited guest. She is a social work educator supporting to foster the next generation of social workers. She has a strong sense of curiosity.
and a social justice lens that influences her worldview and relationship to this world. Whether it’s exploring a new city, cold plunging, which I tried to do with her and I could barely do on New Year’s Day in the ocean. I didn’t do it in the ocean. Coal plunging on New Year’s day in the ocean or savoring the deliciousness of ice cream. Mari is intentional in cultivating and pursuing joy and pleasure in her life. And is excited to have these conversations with me and all you amazing listeners here today on our very first episode of fishnets and fries.
Welcome Mari. Thanks so much for being here. Um, my first question I really wanted to ask you is how did it feel when I. Invited you to be my first guest on this. [00:02:00] Wild new adventure of mine,
Mari: you know, it was so funny because I think I shared this story with you when I saw on your social media, that, that you’re starting to do a podcast or wanting to launch a podcast, I said to myself, Oh my God, what if I was a guest on Michelle’s podcast?
And then I started to think, what if I was like the first guest and then Sloan people, like literally probably the next day you messaged me to say like, Hey, do you want to be a podcast? And do you want to be like the first? You know, guests and I was like, Oh my God, the universe is, , making things happen for us.
So I love it. I’m just honored to be your first guest. I was like, Oh, that’s amazing. I’m so excited. And then I had a second thought where I’m like, Beyond the little bit of the excitement, I was like getting a little bit nervous.
I think because, you know, we have these conversations, you and I have had lots of conversations, deep conversations, , which are so integral to who we are and , so important to have these, open discussions about [00:03:00] all the things that we’re experiencing, all the things we’re seeing in the world, but then, which is great that when we have it with the two of us, it’s like so fun and engaging and so much learning.
But then I was like, Oh no, on the podcast, Other people are going to hear my thoughts and it just felt a little bit vulnerable, you know,
Michele: it is vulnerable. It is vulnerable. So thanks for acknowledging that. And guess what we have fries to help us through. Yes, yes, yes. But it is vulnerable because I think that when I Reflect on why did I want to do this podcast, which I know we’re going to talk a little bit more about after.
I do have such wonderful conversations with my friends,, and I value them so much. And I have a few friends who over the course of the years have been like, You really should have a podcast and we should, we should be talking about this with more people.
I think it’s both scary and exciting, you know, because The world is such a messy place and there’s the trolls and the haters and all of that, but we’re gonna rise above it. Yep. And just share what’s on our heart in the most unfiltered [00:04:00] way and, inviting more people that are like, Yes!
Me too! Absolutely. You know, waving our fries! Yes! Yes. Yes. I just want to mention before we actually dig into all the juicy stuff, I thought, wouldn’t it be cool if I did like a special dip every episode or got my , guest to bring something special that they love with their fries? And guess what Mari showed up with? You tell them. All the
Mari: ingredients for my favorite dip. It’s very nostalgic because, I love making curry dip, like a curry aioli.
for my fries. And I’m Japanese and the taste of the Japanese curry in a red tin powder is very nostalgic for me. And combined with , Kewpie mayonnaise, which is very symbolic of like Japanese, like mayonnaise, like that’s so comforting. And it’s just so amazing to have food be one. Like food can be not just nutritious, but it’s like so many other things.
One of it being nostalgic, [00:05:00] bringing joy, bringing you comfort in these crazy times. And so I wanted to bring that.
Michele: I love it. I love it.
so why don’t we dig in now . Okay, Mari, can you tell us a little bit about your birthday tradition, which is also another reason I invited you on because I was like, I’m launching this at the beginning of the year. I have this friend, she’s super rad.
We have amazing conversations together and I know she can inspire our guests by her birthday tradition and that her is you, my friend. Oh wow. I just think it’s the coolest thing. That’s amazing. So what is your birthday tradition?
Mari: Yeah, so it’s my birthday month. January is my birthday month. My birthday is January 31st and I don’t really know when this started to be honest.
, but I recently decide on this tradition or, an opportunity to celebrate my birthday in a way that is like, I think, unique and interesting. And so around my birthday. I try to do an experience that I’ve, I’ve never really done [00:06:00] before. And so over the years I’ve done some interesting things, but that’s kind of like the gist of my, of my birthday tradition is that around my birthday I try to experience something I’ve never experienced before.
Michele: When did you start doing that?
Mari: I can’t remember the earliest experience. It’s probably at least. Eight years ago, almost 10 years ago, maybe not that long, but like eight years ago perhaps, and yeah, I, the, the, the memories of like how this came about is a little fuzzy.
Michele: That was my next question. Yeah.
Mari: Trying to be like, where did this come from? Like, did I have a major epiphany or something? I didn’t, I don’t, I just cannot recall, but it’s something that I look forward to. birthday. Um, and what that looks like is very different every year, you know, um, but I tried to honor that tradition by doing something a little bit, yeah, that I’ve never experienced like a podcast being interviewed on a podcast.
Michele: I know. I love it. Thank you, Universe. So tell me, what was like the Scariest thing that you [00:07:00] challenge yourself to do on this birthday tradition?
Mari: Okay. The one that I can think of is, um, I, for some reason, well, I had some, you know, proper like thinking behind it, but I decided to go to a gun range. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And you know, I have very personal opinions around guns and it’s something that I just was so scared of and like did not want to go near. I would be terrified too. Yes. Yeah. But I’m like, okay, why I need to move a little. Sometimes when we’re so scared of something and we like move away, we sometimes need to gently push yourself to kind of move towards it to like have different perspectives around like why am I so scared of this one thing?
Michele: Mm hmm.
Mari: I mean obviously guns, you know, you could be scared of me. There’s many reasons to be scared of guns many Yeah, but I was like, okay I want to experience It’s like what it means to hold a gun to fire a gun in a very controlled [00:08:00] environment.
Michele: Like I’m feeling nervous listening because I’m like picturing myself trying to do that.
That’s a big thing.
Mari: Yes.
Michele: It’s a big thing.
Mari: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was really scary. I was really nervous during the whole thing. The safety demo, everything. I was like really nervous. And then. I shot the gun numerous times because, you know, it’s a gun range, um, and I was like, okay, okay.
It’s still a very scary weapon and it could be used, obviously, for many bad things in the world. Um, But it kind of just was an opportunity for me to get over some of the fears and the narratives that I had inside and just to like, allow myself to be scared and that’s totally okay. Um, yeah. And like experiencing something new is scary, whether that’s shooting a gun or I don’t know, going to your first dance class, whatever it may be.
So yeah, that was my first experience holding a gun and it was my last. I haven’t held a gun since then, but I, I was proud of myself.
Michele: Yeah. And [00:09:00] so what kind of gun was it that they, that they offered or did you, first of all, did you get to pick or is it like, Hey, you come for the lesson and this is what you get.
Mari: I think you were able to choose, this was a gun range in Port Coquitlam for those of you who are from the lower mainland. I think I had an opportunity to choose, I had no idea what any of these guns were, so they’re like, this is probably the easiest one for you to start with. Okay. Yeah. I don’t even know what it was, like a shotgun, handgun, I don’t even know terminology, that’s how much, how little I know about guns.
Michele: That’s so
fascinating. Um, yeah, I shot a wedding there once. Oh, no pun intended shot.
Mari: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, photographed wedding.
Michele: Yes. Photographed a wedding there once when I was still photographing weddings and I remember walking through that place and you could hear it all. And even that felt terrifying for me because you’re hearing the bangs and you, you
feel it.
Mari: Yes.
Michele: So what did that feel like, like to do?
Mari: Yeah. Like when you’re actually shooting the gun. You feel like the reverberation of the gun and [00:10:00] like just everything, like you, you feel like it is, you’re holding something that is so powerful, like in a good way, in a bad way, whatever it may be, but you’re like, oh, wow, like this is a powerful tool or instrument that you’re, you’re holding.
And yeah, I, I didn’t get used to it enough to feel comfortable using it because it’s just my first time and, you know, you’re only there for like an hour, what may be, but yeah, it was. It was scary and powerful at the same time.
Michele: And did your opinion about guns, like you were saying that, you know, you had these narratives.
Did that change at all after that experience for you?
Mari: No, in a sense that like I still have like, you know, my, my personal very strong opinions about guns and gun control and all of that. Um, I think it was. I think it was more of an exercise in like doing something that you’re scared of, not so much to like help me change my opinion about guns because I don’t think it will really change, [00:11:00] you know, to like, it won’t go to the other end.
Um, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I can see that. Yeah. So it was more of like, I was proud of myself that I kind of like overcame something I had very strong opinions about. And that I was very scared to do, um, and I’m still have those opinions about guns and personal opinions, but like, it was more, yeah, I was proud that I kind of like gently pushed myself to go towards something you’re scared of.
Michele: Why would you encourage people to do that to go towards something that you’re scared of?
Mari: I think it’s like, because it’s a process of getting to know yourself better, you know, we a lot of times in life because of our conditioning and just how society is, we’ve we operate from a place of fear, make decisions from a place that you’re big time.
 And It’s just I think human nature to like move away from things that you’re scared of because like why would you move towards something that you’re scared of, you know, but I think if we want to better understand [00:12:00] ourselves and better understand like other people like for me, I’m like, I really seriously can’t understand why people would want to openly hold own guns, you know, I mean, a lot of it in the US, but then it’s just for me to like also not understand yourself, but to understand it.
The other folks that might not align with your values that might not align with, um, your opinions about certain things. And it’s like, it’s scary to move towards that direction because you’re like instinct is to like move quickly away from like people who have different opinions who are, you know, and in society, like right now, everything is so divisive.
That like we need to come closer to each other.
Michele: Amen, sister. Also, I don’t know why I keep leaning into the microphone. I think it makes me feel really cool . Yes, to all of that and I’m thinking about something else. That I know that you have done on your birthday with me coming in for a photo shoot and leaning in to how we Experience [00:13:00] ourselves.
Yeah. Um, can you talk a little bit about that? Not necessarily about what it was like working with me, but for you like, you know, why did you want to do that? Yeah, that’s also a scary thing for a lot of people. Yeah,
Mari: definitely Um, going, you know off of like the tradition that I want to experience something new and \ The whole thing around the photo shoot is, you know, I have just like many people have very strong narratives around beauty standards and, being Japanese, there are lots of beauty standards and since I was a kid, like I knew my body did not conform to the beauty standard, Japanese beauty standards and Western beauty standards, you know, I grew up in Canada and so I just knew from a very young age that my body did not meet the beauty standards.
And then as I start to get older and do a lot of work on myself, , I think it’s, we need to celebrate ourselves more hell. Yeah. You know, high fives. And to [00:14:00] me, what better way to celebrate yourself and celebrate your body and all that it does for you, regardless of what it looks like, it’s like really significant and important for women.
Michele: I, I think, yeah, I, and I even think it’s significant and important for. Um, and I think it’s really important to be all humans. And when, you know, what you were saying too, about how we can start to understand other people and start to kind of build connections and how the world needs that right now. I think part of that, obviously I’m biased as a photographer, but showing up, taking up more space, being unapologetic.
Um, Mari showed up today with this card for me and it says, I’m a grown ass lady and I do what I want. Um, and I feel like that’s, that, that’s it. You know, and, and we’re also not wanting people to show up. All the people, you know, and so I think that’s so rad that you did that. What’s one of the funnest things that you’ve done for your birthday?
Mari: Gosh, [00:15:00] so many things. I think one of the most memorable things, this was like earlier on in this tradition, love the ocean. Like my soul lives in the ocean. It’s my happy place, anywhere near on in the ocean, specifically the ocean. It’s not like all bodies of water. It’s the ocean. And when I was a kid, I loved to swim.
Like I would pretend I was a mermaid. I still pretend sometimes I’m a mermaid. And I can like spend hours in the ocean. Like if it’s like warm, she doesn’t mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so because my birthday is January 31st, it’s the winter and I can’t really spend it in the place that I love, which is the ocean.
I mean, I can spend it on the outside, but like, I really love being in the ocean. And so I had an opportunity to go to a conference, um, end of January in, um, New Zealand. Okay. And New Zealand obviously is like the other Southern hemisphere. So. It was [00:16:00] summer there. Hot. Yes. And I was like, my only expectation I have for this trip is to spend my birthday at the beach, on the beach, on, in the ocean.
And so that was like one of my most memorable things because it’s not something that I could really do here. And growing up, I couldn’t really do, you know, having like a birthday party. With kids, like, at the ocean, end of January, parents would be like, um, no one would show up on my birthday, probably, you know.
Michele: Who started the cold dipping trend? I, I don’t get, yeah, I love the ocean. I love the water. Also, do not love cold dipping. Hats off to everyone that could get into the cold ocean on New Year’s Day. In fact, we were this year at our friend’s house on Vancouver Island, and they went cold dipping in the morning as their
annual tradition while we stayed in cozy at their house. Nice. Nice. That’s so nice. Um, that you got to the opportunity to do that and enjoy your day [00:17:00] in a way that you’ve, you know, most likely dreamed about. I love this ocean. How can I enjoy that on my birthday? Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Um, what about, has there been anything spicy or saucy that you’ve on your birthday?
Mari: let’s see.
Michele: Also this mayo dip. I’m going to share her recipe. It’s really good.
Mari: Um, I think it’s like probably the photo shoot that I’ve had with you. I’ve had two photo shoots on my birthday with you. So yes, she has. Yeah. And I, I’ve been photographed by Michelle so many times and it’s always such an amazing experience.
And I think. It’s probably like the first time where I’ve ever celebrated my body, and accepted my body for what it is right now at this moment in time. And, you know, our bodies as women and people just change constantly, you know, and. I think it’s important to celebrate every single sort of [00:18:00] transition changes that are happening in your body.
It also means you’re still alive, right? Which is such an amazing thing. Like, we are alive right this moment. Like, in this whole, you know,
Michele: Sitting here, eating
our
fries.
You know, I think that people forget. Yeah, this is It’s such an interesting topic, right, because I want to acknowledge that it’s not always easy to exist in someone’s body, in your own body, it’s not always easy to feel alive, right, and so taking time out to intentionally connect with that feeling, right, and connect with your body that you might be like, You know, I’m always saying, I’m not trying to shove someone’s body down their throat and make them love themselves.
To me, I think, and what I’m hearing you say, it’s like about honoring where we’re at in this moment in time, um, in this lifetime, you know, this earth side. Um, and that is such a powerful and difficult thing to do.
Mari: Yeah.
Michele: Right.
Mari: Yeah. [00:19:00] And I think it’s like. You know, it’s important, I think, to come to a place for yourself to like acknowledge your body, acknowledge all the amazing things that it does for you every single day, and to give gratitude.
To it, you know, honor it and to be able to say, you know what, there might be certain things that you might, not like about it or the way it looks, but acknowledging that this is where my body is right now and accepting it for whatever, what it is, is like the biggest love I think you can have for yourself is like to be able to just acknowledge and accept and.
Give thanks to it.
Michele: Yeah. And I also think it’s such a radical thing to do, you know, um, thinking to some of our conversations that we have privately, um, and actually I was just updating my website yesterday and, um, I was updating it and [00:20:00] writing about how rebellious.
I
think it is to be like, this is who I am.
And I know it’s not easy together. Sometimes we need to do that to see that, to start to believe it. Right. Because we’re like, I’ve witnessed a lot of people inching towards wanting that, that, that feeling of liberating themselves from these toxic narratives. Right. We know that they’re there. Yeah, we know.
Well. I know that you and I know why they’re there too, right? And I’m just going to go and say it, but white supremacy culture has really fucked us over. Yes. Right? And it’s not just the patriarchy. Like, so let’s be clear about that. That’s a very big part of it. But this idea of how we should be seen and moved through the world is really rooted in white supremacy culture.
Yes. And so most of us who are raised here, you know, um, we’re raised with those kinds of narratives and even you are saying like in Japan, [00:21:00] you also had those kind of narratives too, right? They’re freaking everywhere. Absolutely. So trying to shed all of that and as we still move through the world where all of those narratives are being put upon us, like it’s hard.
Yes. It’s hard.
Mari: It’s hard work. It’s like requires a lot of energy. And I can understand why some people would move away from it and get scared because like doing a lot of this inner work requires you to like confront like Parts of yourself that you’re like, oh shit, oh, that doesn’t feel good. But yeah, it’s part of the work and we gotta like acknowledge that in ourselves and be like, okay, I need to show up differently.
Michele: Well, and also I think
I can speak for myself that we don’t often want to believe
Mari: mm-hmm.
Michele: That
we have.
Um, I think, um, of myself and I just got goosebumps saying that because I can think of myself as someone who, [00:22:00] like, my undergrad was in social justice and feminist theory. I’ve always been, you know, like a freedom fighter kind of person. And then to acknowledge like, well, wait a minute. I actually hold these biases, too.
Absolutely. I actually have these narratives that not only have impacted the way I see myself, but the way I see others. Yeah. And so that, it’s way bigger. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. So, those little micro steps, and even though coming for a photo shoot might not feel like a micro step, it can feel like a gigantic, big, scary, terrifying thing for a lot of people.
Yeah. But that’s part of that work, I think. Yeah. Right?
Mari: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, The way we were conditioned through society and all these bigger forces, like white supremacy, and that is colonization and all these oppressive forces that are put upon us, um, it impacts the way we think and sometimes when we come up with, like, our own biases are all.
Michele: Oh, you know, our own thinking and being like, Oh, shoot, was [00:23:00] that bit racist? It’s really scary for you to like, recognize or acknowledge that that you you have you can have those tendencies. Yeah. But I think, like, in going to this whole thing about being radical, like, That’s part of taking like radical responsibility, you know, as in like, sometimes the way we think might not be a hundred percent or fault because like, we’re just constantly inundated indoctrinated, but being a, once you’re aware of it, you need to be able to take a radical responsibility.
Another high five. Radical responsibility.
Mari: Yeah.
Michele: Yes. So what does that look like? Radical response? What does it look like for you?
Mari: Yeah. I think going back to this whole, Thing of like moving towards being scared or going towards your like fears. I think part of radical responsibility is moving towards your fears and exploring those parts that you were scared of.
Um, but it’s going to help you get a better understanding of who you are, a more complete [00:24:00] understanding of who you are, being able to live your truth. Like speak, like, like know your truth. First of all, you have to like know what your truth is. Sometimes it’s like buried between underneath all this gunk that’s like put upon us through our conditioning, through our childhood, social media, you know, politics, everything, you know, the world.
Yeah. As we do. Yeah. And sometimes experiencing something you’ve never experienced before, going, moving towards something you’re scared of helps you get to a little bit of the inner core where. Your truth lies and helps you to kind of like get away a little bit of that gunk, you know, because if we’re just living our life status quo and not pushing ourselves a little bit, challenge ourselves a little bit, putting ourselves in situations that we’ve never been, we’re not going to learn.
Michele: No, we’re not. We’re not, and we’re not going to help each other out as a community, right? I think we’re seeing such a, I [00:25:00] feel like it’s interesting, right? A lot of people think we’re seeing such a degradation in community. Like we’re not having as much community connection, but then I’m also witnessing there is community.
Just, it’s sometimes just harder to find, you know? And you have to create it sometimes yourself. Totally, when you start to do that work, that messy, uncomfortable, all of it, I think that’s where you start to find more alignment through community. You know, because we are moving, and this isn’t to throw shade at anyone, right?
It’s like, we’ve all known amazing people at certain times in our life, and they’ve, they’ve been there for a reason. And thank you very much. And maybe no thank you anymore. You know, because as we’re learning and growing, and as we’re learning more about ourselves, we learn more about how we experience the world, how we see the world.
And how we support each other. Yep. Right? Yeah. So I think it’s just all so important and powerful and, you know, kind of bringing it back to existing in our bodies. I think it really does start there because we [00:26:00] carry so much and it’s, I was just writing this yesterday, um, for something else about how it’s not always safe for people to take up space.
Yes. And we hear this narrative of like, take up space, take up space, and I know it’s like, go team, go, and yay, and I’ve probably even said it too, I do say it. And I acknowledge that it’s not safe. Or easy for everybody to do that. So that’s why I always think it’s like these little micro steps. So if you come and do, example, a photo shoot like you did, nobody needs to see it but you.
Mari: Yeah, absolutely. You should be doing it for you, not for anyone else but you.
Michele: You know, bonus
to you if you want to like take up more space literally out there in the world, but even for yourself. I know Mari has a little gallery at her house. Yes, yes. And I just, I love that so much. So, a little birdie has also told me that you’re got some projects for this
year, so
what do you tell us about
those?
Mari: I’m excited to share some of these things, um, and like, you know, send it out into the universe. Um, so we were talking about, you know, really difficult conversations and topics like [00:27:00] white supremacy and such. So Our favorite topic. Um, I have a writing project that’s completed and it’s just waiting to be published um, you know, as a social worker and a social work educator, this topic around white supremacy and how that impacts.
Social work practice is really important like it infiltrates all the all layers of society without us being conscious about it And so it’s it’s a writing piece around what are the characteristics of white supremacy? How does that show up in social work practice? How do we? Um, develop and cultivate an anti racist framework from which we can live and also in this specific writing.
It’s about social work practice and it’s about like collective healing and collective. Work that is required to sort of dismantle racism to work towards a lot of these oppressive, um, [00:28:00] forces that are just part of our society, unfortunately, and so you were talking about how community right now is like feels like it’s eroding.
This is the time when we need to find community. This is the time when communities are going to come together because is necessary.
Michele: It’s necessary.
Mari: Yeah.
Michele: It’s so necessary. And you know, tying this all up with what we’ve been talking about, that work starts within and then we, and then we can start to build that community.
I want to go back
to that in a sec too,
Mari: yeah. So, you know, New Year’s, I don’t set goals. You know, New Year’s resolutions. I do set some intentions and especially because this is my birthday month as well.
Like one of the reasons why I do my birthday tradition is like, yes, New Year’s is like, you know, January 1st is the beginning of like the calendar year. But for me, my birthday is. The beginning of my year, you know, that’s when I came earthside. Yeah, I think of my birthday as a, as a, as an [00:29:00] opportunity to think about like, what’s coming up ahead.
That’s why I do some of those, um, experience something new as to start the year with good intentions, you know? And so for one of the intentions I have this year is to cultivate more intentional. Connections. I feel like you’re so good at that. Am I? Okay, that’s great.
Thank you. I want to do it more. I want to do it more. And when I think about things that bring me lots of joy in my life, as you might be seeing, you know, the mayo dip that I brought. Like, cooking is something that brings me a lot of joy, you know, and sharing my food with others. Also brings me a ton of joy, and so, um, I was thinking, how can I put this together with, like, also cultivating new connections?
And so I’m, I’m hoping to kind of, like, start, like, dinner with Mari and friends. kind of where I would cook [00:30:00] for the people who are invited to my dinner. But the caveat is because I want to meet new people and interesting people, like people who have interesting views, people who have interesting jobs, maybe they have interesting projects on the go, like interesting people.
That my guest has to bring someone that they don’t, that I don’t know. Oh, I love it. Yeah. I love it. This is so cool. So it’s just like, I’m sending it on the universe. I have like kind of intentions for how many of these dinners I want to do, but it’s like, we need to build our own community. You know, sometimes we’re just waiting around, hoping for the invitation, which sometimes like that’s necessary too, but sometimes we need to be the one doing
the inviting.
Michele: Totally. Um, I was actually thinking about this. Just the other day before COVID, my husband and I, we used to host things here all the time and we stopped because of COVID and then we just stopped because it’s very difficult with, um, our family situation and having a lot of people around and I was telling a friend.
My friend on the island that I was [00:31:00] listening. , I really want to get together with people and just cook like sitting around a table and making food and like sharing the costs and we sit around, we make food that can go in the freezer and then we’re talking,
you know, this art
of like making food and talking.
So it’s like this in another thing and alignment here. I know it’s not making food. You’re making for people are entertaining, but this idea of coming together. Absolutely. Food. Yeah. Brings us together, and then, so I have a question. Are you planning on having topics that you want to throw, like, hey, everybody, thanks for coming.
We’re going to talk about white supremacy tonight.
Mari: Yeah, like I want it
to be like a group of people that we can have these conversations. We can have challenging conversations, and I want to be challenged on my views, perhaps, too. You know, it’s part of our, Our opportunities to understand each other better.
Michele: Yeah.
Well, that’s how we learn. We don’t learn in a vacuum. Yeah, absolutely. In this total echo chamber. It’s something I’ve often been very aware of because it’s like, okay, the people I talk to, [00:32:00] we, especially more now as I’ve gotten older are in alignment and we are like, fuck the patriarchy. Fuck the man.
White colonizers fucked us all up. There’s so much to dismantle. And I sit around with people that are all like, yeah, you know, and I do want to have these conversations as well with people are like, I don’t understand what, what, yeah, you know, cause they’re so in it. Yeah. They don’t necessarily see it and they haven’t had to see it maybe, right.
Absolutely. I love that you want to do that, and this is why I wanted to ask you what your second thing was before talking about your writing, because I was, I was very curious, because somehow there might be a little connection in there.
Mari: Yeah, I actually didn’t see it as a connection, but now maybe, yeah, there is, definitely.
You know, I think so. Yeah, about this whole thing about community and the need for it right now. And sometimes we have to build it ourselves, but I think, like, we need to move towards more of the collective in order for us [00:33:00] to address some of these challenges that are happening for us to. Um, find healing in community and food like we’re talking about just now is so healing like breaking bread together.
That’s like in so many cultures, indigenous cultures around the world and just, you know, traditionally, you really can’t be mad while you’re eating, I feel like.
Michele: Even these, these, these fries that I kind of overcooked, I will say they’re a little crunchy. Yeah. No, you can’t. And I think this is, this is why I’ve been thinking
a lot about food. Food is one of my favorite topics. In fact, when I was also updating my website, I was like, I’m a wannabe chef. Um, although I don’t really want to be a chef because I could never handle the pressure of the kitchen. Right. I don’t like pressure. I like to cook in my own time.
Mari: I
 have some ideas.
I feel like. Now that we’re talking about a lot of this, there’s so much alignment with around food. I feel like there’s going to be future projects for us. Yeah.
Michele: Yeah. Like touring the world looking for the best fries.
Mari: Mm hmm. And coming up with a [00:34:00] cookbook.
Michele: Yeah.
So I want to know, I’m so excited to hear about these projects. I hope I get an invitation.
And I’m already like, who would . We’ve talked about racism. We’ve talked about the patriarchy, which can all, all of it can feel like doom and gloom.
So what can people start to do to ditch conforming to these messages that we’re constantly fed to live a more rad, delicious, bodacious life?
Mari: I think like one of the feelings that resonates with me that and. That I’m actually quite good at is like cultivating joy, you know, joy is you are good at that is like.
You know, it’s such an important feeling for me and it’s something that I think I do well in trying to cultivate in my life. And so I think, and it’s all of it is like really understanding who you are and even like understanding like what brings you joy. Hmm. Because I think like when I just say, yeah, go cultivate joy.
What does that mean? And that’s going to look [00:35:00] different for everyone. My, I know myself well, and I know what culture, like what brings me joy. You know, um, and even understanding how joy you feel joy in your body.
Michele: Totally, you know, well, and it also changes, right? So, as you’re talking, I’m sitting here listening to what used to bring me joy before I had a child.
Yes. Then what brought me joy when my child was small? What’s bringing me joy right now? Because my life is really complicated. Yes. And quite honestly, bringing me joy is sleeping in. Yes.
Mari: Yes. Sleep is underrated.
Right. It’s one of the most glorious things.
Michele: Seriously, uh, bringing me joy is now taking a bath, locking the door, and putting something hilarious on to watch, like Abbott Elementary.
I’ve watched that on repeat so many times. Um, that brings me so much joy. I think we also have to be Okay. To understand that, that there’s an evolution process there too, because I think sometimes, [00:36:00] um, and I’ll just speak for myself as a mother to a neurodivergent child, also as a woman living with a disability myself, it’s like, it can be frustrating, right?
You can get stuck in frustration because you can’t operate the way you used to be able to.
Mari: Yeah,
 
Michele: So I know, I know I’ve had to learn to have a lot of patience and curiosity. and compassion with myself. Yes. To see what brings me joy. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
Mari: Absolutely. And I think I also need to recognize that my ability to go and, search for joy, cultivate joy is, is based on also my privilege, you know?
And so I recognize that piece and, , people who might be in a different social location than I am, like, joy might not be something that they’re concerned with right now because they’re just. I don’t have the capacity for so I fully recognize that, I, I do live a privileged life. I have a lot of privileges, which allows me to start thinking about like, yeah, how can I bring more joy into my life?
Um,
Michele: you can bring joy into other people’s lives too, which I [00:37:00] think you really do.
Mari: Oh, really? That’s so sweet of you. Yeah. I mean, it’s great. Thank you. And like, for those of you who like, you know, know about human design, for example, like for me, I’m a generator and like generating joy. And going after things that bring me joy also helps me helps like the world to like be energized themselves and inspired themselves as well.
So like joy is such a feeling that I resonate so well with and it’s in alignment with who I am.
Michele: And I’m also thinking too. Yeah, like joy can be such small things. And we, this is, I’m just going to keep bringing it back there. Cause this is how Mari and I’s conversations usually go, um, back to the patriarchy and things like that.
Like capitalism, right? Colonial capitalism. Like we have been fed that self care. Self love is this big, grandiose gesture, and honestly, I can honestly tell you that sometimes what brings me so much joy is just sticking my feet in the dirt in my [00:38:00] backyard. And I have the privilege of having a yard living in the Lower Mainland, um, and that it’s just so simple for me.
Like, um, And I think we have to also start to reframe what joy can look like because it can be a phone call like a text that I got a client review this morning and I was having a not a great day. I was like, Oh, my God, I started my podcast today. I just don’t want to be in this energy. And just that email saying, Oh, you’ve got a new review like that brought me so much joy.
And that’s why I was saying like, we can also So, we just want to share our joy and that can bring, you know, the funny memes, the text messages like there’s all these little things that we do have access to that doesn’t have to be the big trip.
but sitting with a friend and having a warm cup of tea, some yummy fries and shooting the like that brings me so much joy especially because I don’t get to do it often. Yeah.
Mari: And I think like going back on the like, the concept about, you know, quote, self care is that you have to do it alone. It’s your responsibility to like [00:39:00] care for yourself.
It’s a very neoliberal concept of like, it’s you, you got to rely on yourself. And it’s only you, you can rely on to bring yourself care. We’re really. I think about collective care, you know, the care and the joy should be collective. You know, we experience pain collectively. We need to heal that pain collectively, which means we need to like experience joy collectively, you know, it’s going to make me cry, everybody.
Michele: There are tears in our conversations. Oh, I love that. I love that. So, you know, I always think it’s like little pockets of joy. These little things, like, absolutely. I don’t know. Your favorite something, something was there at the grocery store on sale that day. Yeah,
Mari: that’s so fun. When I’m like, you go to the grocery store and you’re like, oh, I want to treat myself.
And the thing you want to get by is on sale. You’re like, yes, universe. Thank you. You know.
Michele: So yeah, so let, let it be known here from us to joy doesn’t have to be big.
Mari: Absolutely.
Michele: Look for joy in these small little spaces and don’t [00:40:00] forget to spread joy too. Oh my gosh. I love it. I love it. Okay. So I want to know, this podcast is called fish, nuts and fries, right?
Where do you get your best fries? Do you make them? Is there a place that you go to that you love? Are you not? Are you impartial? Like a fries, a fries, a fry.
Yeah, picky. Yeah. Um, when it comes down to it, like I love fries, it should be like its own food category, like food group, you know, like, that’s how much I love fries.
And so therefore, I’m not like super duper picky on fries, like a fry is a fry. Of course, there’s more superior fries I feel like than others, but sorry. But at the end of the day, like, how can you not like a potato that is fried? You know, I love a good poutine. That’s one of the ways I love eating fries. I do.
And I have an American friend who’s like,
eww Oh, what’s with you
guys?
No, no friend, friend. Come try. Be open minded.
Mari: Yes. Yeah. So, um, I usually typically like the thicker [00:41:00] cut fries, you know, like those are like, cause it’s like crispy on the outside, soft on the inside. Um, But I was, there’s like so many forms of fries, like waffle cut, like curly fries, tater tots.
Like, is that a fry? Like, I don’t know.
Michele: As I choke on my fries. I was actually thinking about tater tots lying in bed last night thinking, are tater tots a fry? I love me some tater tots. And I’m also very impartial to making nachos with tater tots.
Mari: Oh, that sounds delicious.
 
Michele: Yeah. Okay.
You get your tater tot. Yeah. Your salsa. Fresh salsa. Yeah. This, like, I make this homemade vegan cheese sauce. I’ll make it for you sometime. It’s really,
Mari: I feel like a cookbook is coming in our future. I’m going to say that to manifest it.
Michele: Do you want to know something so funny? I’ve always wanted to photograph a cookbook and over COVID, I started, I was like, I need a hobby.
And so we can’t really go anywhere. And I’m really good with the camera. So I started and I love to cook. So I started baking. I’m [00:42:00] terrible at baking. Let it be known. I’m terrible at baking. So I’m like, I’m going to try baking. I’m terrible at it. But to motivate me and to get me out of my head space that I’m terrible at it, I’m going to photograph what I bake.
Okay. And so I have a whole bunch of food photos. Yeah. Of like these random cookies. Okay. Because I just, I really enjoyed it and it was very meditative for me. Both the production of the food. Yeah. And then like, Now photographing it. Yeah. So it’s so funny. So funny.
Mari: Yeah. So many opportunities. If anyone who is listening wants to publish our potential cookbook, please reach out.
Michele: I was saying earlier, traveling, um, we had all these ideas and I was like, Oh, we need, what’s it called? An angel investor. Is yes. Yes. Yes. If you’re out, let us know. Let us know. We have a lot of ideas. Okay, so my last question for you, Mari, and I thought about this this morning, is I love alliteration. Oh, yes, you do.
There’s a lot of alliteration all over my website, all over, even this, I was like, I cut out what I was supposed to say because I’m like, that’s a tongue twister. And I realize that [00:43:00] fishnets and fries is a bit of a tongue twister. So can you say it five times fast? Oh my god.
Mari: Fishnets and fries. Fishnets and fries.
Fishnets and fries. Fishnets and fries. Fishnets and fries. High five. Also, I feel like that brought you a lot of joy. Your face was happy. Yeah! You know? And that’s the thing, like, joy is a very, like, high vibration.
Michele: You’re like, and if you’re watching here, I can see it like sparkling. Oh my gosh. I love it.
I know that you came with some questions for me. I don’t really know what they are. Okay.
Mari: This is your turn. I’m going to pass it over to you. Well, I mean, you know, this is your first episode. So I think maybe the audience can like get a little bit of an understanding of like, you know, how this came about.
Like we’re, we’re just talking about the title of this. Um, podcasts, fishnets, and fries. So, first of all, how did you come up with that, um, title or the name for your podcast? And where did even this idea of the podcast, like, come from? Like, what inspired you?
Michele: Okay, I’m going to start with what inspired [00:44:00] me.
Mari:
Michele: I feel like, I, yeah, you go for it. I know I kept turning my mic off. This one doesn’t turn off because some of them are crunchy. I was like, do they want to hear us crunch? I was like, I have to think this through a little bit more on this recording. Um, so I just have so many rad conversations with my friends, with my clients that I have had the privilege to witness and photograph.
And I know there’s lots of people out there having wonderful conversations. And I’ve always been this kind of person that. Why not also add to it? And it’s not so much adding to the noise, but adding to the flavor, you know, it’s kind of like, let’s bring in that. Also, yeah. Um, it’s like, you know, I can all add to this big, like now I’m, now I’m having food visions of like collective stew.
Like what can you put into it? And so I was really thinking about how I wanted to bring. These conversations together to share, because I feel like I’m often saying to people, Oh my gosh, I just talked to my friend and we were talking about this and you got to meet them or have you ever [00:45:00] thought about that?
You know, like, so these kind of, um, conversations that have built over other conversations and I just thought it’d be kind of fun. I just thought it’d be fine. Yeah. And I. Actually, about a year ago now, had worked out the name and I had a few different names, I’ll tell you about that in a sec, got it all up and ready, but just life gets in the way.
And I think another thing that for me, back to the joy thing is, um, being a photographer, I used to photograph, you know, eight to 12 shoots a month. I used to do weddings and my life has really changed. I started unschooling my son this year. Um, as he ages, we’re having more challenges moving through this very, uh, Um, ableist, neuro, um, typical world and, you know, I have to advocate so much for him.
And there’s these conversations that I think about so much in that arena. And then there’s also conversations that I think about in, , like talking about white supremacy and [00:46:00] as a white woman and what’s my role and all these different things that I think about. Non stop. My son actually said to me once, he saw me reading a book and was like, what are you reading?
 I was reading a book about anti racism and he said, mom, do you ever read anything fun? All these things that are in my head It’s like, why not bring some together and have conversations? And I don’t want to make light of these topics that I’m thinking about because they tend to be heavy and important and, and complicated.
Yeah, but I still wanted to have some fun so where did the name come from? Well, uh, I’m a photographer and I’m always talking about , leaning into our bodies and ourselves and fuck the patriarchy. And fries are one of these foods that are like a guilt food.
Guilt food. Okay. Like it’s a pleasure food. Yeah. You know, sitting around the table with a friend, pleasure food. Yeah. Fuck guilt food. Right. So that was one thing where the fry came from and fishnets. Well, hello. I love all things [00:47:00] sexy. Um, and I love alliteration. And also with a lot of the photography I do, it’s something that people often will wear and there’s, and then I was actually thinking about it this morning.
I don’t know where my Keffiyeh is, but I was like, you know. Um, the activist in me, um, the keffiyeh has fishnets on it. Um, that’s right. Right. Yeah. I was just thought about that this morning. So I, it had nothing to do with why I chose the name, but it’s just like, Oh, all these symbols. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, and so, and yeah, I wanted something that was fun, a little bit sassy.
So yeah.
Mari: That’s amazing. You know, one of the things I admire about you and that you inspire me is you’re like a go person. Like when you have ideas, you don’t stew around in it and in a sense that, oh, like. And think of all the ways that it can happen, you’re just like, let’s just go and see what happens.
Michele: Throw a sheet to the wind,
see if it
flies.
Mari: Yeah, I love it. Um, okay, so now like, fishness and fries, so you love alliteration, and I know you also love like, F words, because clearly, you know, fishness and [00:48:00] fries, they’re all F words. But there’s like other F words that you love. Like, tell me about your other F words.
Michele: Oh, yeah. I feel like this is really ties into our conversation about, um, dismantling things, you know, because there’s a lot of F words that people are scared of, like the word fat. Uh huh. You know, fat’s a descriptive word. Yes. Let’s talk about fat. Fat is a word. That’s a descriptive word. Let’s not give it so much.
Evil power, you know, and so I know like with my photography work, I’ve talked about that a lot.
Mari: Yeah,
Michele: fabulous. I mean, what does that mean? And for, you know, fierce, you know, that kind of energy, um, feminist, of course, must be intersectional. That’s my flavor. My flavor of feminism is intersectional all day, every day.
Um, there’s just so many friends, fun, fries, ferocious, you know, um, there’s so many wonderful F words that, and actually [00:49:00] my, the two names I had for this podcast was fishnets and fries and the other name was for the love of F words. Um, and my husband voted for that one and he didn’t understand the whole fishnets and fries.
When all my friends were like. I love that name. So that’s what we went with. That’s amazing. So yeah, I want to talk about those words. I want to work them in because again, like fabulous, like ferocious, like these topics that can be really uncomfortable to approach, can we? Without, making light of them, approach them in a way that brings that kind of energy where we’re not like walking away with doom and gloom, but we’re walking away feeling energized, inspired, um, ready to go out there and do whatever we have the capacity to do.
Mari: Yeah, that’s amazing. I’m so excited for you and this, like all the fun and amazing and deep conversations you’re going to have with this, with this podcast.
Michele: Oh, thanks, friend. I won’t lie. I’m nervous. I’m [00:50:00] like, I don’t know how to edit audio. We will YouTube it. Thank you for all of the YouTubing and the people that I’ve been connecting with.
Just learning about podcasting. It’s a cool thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s way bigger than I thought. That’s okay. And Mari was like, okay, so when should I come over? When I invited her to be a guest, I was like, Oh, Oh, I thought I’d do this online. And then I went on this whole other learning tangent, like very quickly.
Cause I’m like, yes, that would be awesome to be together to have, you know, I think the energy is different, right? Although if people are from afar. If you can fly into Vancouver, cool. But it’s okay if you can’t. We can still have those conversations. And also I want to be very inclusive and if it’s difficult for our guests to come in, we can definitely do it like through distance.
But this was just so great for the first time. We were both nervous at the beginning and it just, it just went.
Mari: So, so if people are [00:51:00] now, you know, listening to a conversation and want to be a guest, On your podcast? Like how could they do that?
Michele: Oh, well that’s a great question. Mm-hmm . Um, send me a DM on socials or an email that’ll be here on the podcast notes and podcast page and all the
I have a whole list of people in my head here. I’ve already invited and some I’m going to invite.
And then I think probably for season two, we’ll open it up to that kind of thing. Season two, it sounds a little fancy. I’m like, I’m
thinking, how long is the season? Like, I don’t, I don’t know.
Mari: Is it like. Episode numbers or is it like what you record in a year all these questions for podcast newbies
Michele: So in the meantime if you’re listening to this and you’re like, oh my gosh, I would love to shoot the shit with her I’d love to discuss some of these topics that we’ve touched on today or other things, you know that you’re like Oh, I’d love to talk to someone about this.
I have something that I want to share Yes, please [00:52:00] reach out to me Through email, and then I’ll send you the application form.
Mari: Amazing!
Michele: Fun! Do you have any more questions for me?
Mari: No, I think that’s it for now.
Michele: Okay, amazing. Let me, uh, just make sure I didn’t miss anything. Do, do, do. Should I try and say fishnets and fries five times too?
Yes, do it. I made you do it. Okay. Uh, fishnets and fries, fishnets and fries, fishnets and fries, fishnets and fries, fishnets and fries. Yeah! You did it! Wasn’t as hard this morning. I tried and I was like, oh, okay. Um, Mari, thank you so much for being like My first guest on this new venture, uh, definitely an experiment, and I’m so grateful that you received my invitation with excitement and joy, and you brought this yummy curry dip, and our fries are probably cold, but I’m still going to eat them.
Mari: I’m still going to eat them too.
Michele: How can our listeners find you or connect with you on the fabulous [00:53:00] things that you are also doing?
Mari: Yeah, so people can reach out, um, on my social media, my Instagram, it’s Mari underscore Otomo, or you can find me on LinkedIn. And yeah, I would love to continue these conversations.
Michele: Yeah, definitely go check her out.
I will be putting all of that here in the show notes and on my website and all of that good juicy stuff. And to everyone who tuned in to do it. To everyone who tuned in today, oh gosh, that alliteration is really complicated sometimes. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here, for listening, for giving us your time.
Uh, maybe you were driving, maybe you were cleaning the house, maybe you were taking a bath. So inviting us into your space. Thank you so much. I really hope that this conversation inspired you to live a more bodacious life. one fry at a time. I’m Michele Mateus and I was your host and this was Mari Otomo.
Thank you so much! Bye everybody! Bye!
Thanks for [00:54:00] diving into another episode of Fishnets and Fries. If these conversations are feeding your soul, don’t forget to subscribe and share the love. Until next time, keep it hot, keep it real and keep it fabulous.